‘a policy of trying to force diversity is social poison’ but I’m watching riots and recalling Jacob Zuma and “Zigzag” Marzah

Currently in the comment thread at:
http://globalguerrillas.typepad.com/globalguerrillas/2010/07/links-2-july-2010.html

we have andrew kieran arguing with abprosper:

andrew kieran said in reply to John Walters…
does diversity only count when people speak a different language to you, or are of a different colour? cause if you ask me the only serious terrorist threat britain’s ever faced has been overspill from the continuing Irish Civil War. Muslim bombers have committed one successful atrocity in this country (britain) since the UK joined the holy war. The IRA bombed every major city in england, assassinated members of the british elite, and caused endless havoc back home in ireland. and the UDA were just as bad. Both these groups have very strong ethnic enclaves in scotland, ireland and england.

Should i perhaps seek a national homeland where there are no protestants then, because we obviously just can’t get on?

Maybe i should disown my protestant friends, as they have a different culture from me. While i’m at it, i’d better defriend Omar and Noshine, because their ethno-national interest is contrary to mine.

whatever. you go off and hide in your little white-washed ethnic enclave like those pathetic white people that live in fortresses on hackney road thinking the blacks on the street want to do nothing but rob them.

i’ve lived in a lot of different areas with a wide variety of demographic makeups and the only constant variable that goes hand in hand with violence is poverty. there’s violence in black ghettoes, there’s violence in white ghettoes, there’s violence in multi-cultural ghettoes, there’s violence on traveller sites and there’s violence in marginalised communes.

and to round it off, i’d like to go back to my original point about the irish conflict. in scotland find catholic ghettoes and protestant ghettoes in glasgow. Guess what. these places are the worst shitholes in the country. they have no vibrancy, no life, just mistrust, suspicion, hatred, fear and violence. not just against the other but against any other race or social class.

if you want to go live in an ethnically homogenous cultural dead-zone go ahead, but don’t come crying to me when your kids grow up without hope because you’ve shut yourself off from the cultural mainstream

Reply Friday, 09 July 2010 at 08:25 PM
abprosper said in reply to andrew kieran…
Your last phrase there made no sense whatsoever. Cultural mainstream? I assume you meant “state and media constructed” culture there?

Real culture flows from face to face social interaction which if the studies are correct, are inhibited by the very diversity that you are trying to construct.

And without hope, please. Kids grow up in mono-cultural enclaves and come out great. Happy,educated, well adjusted and entirely excellent citizens all the time.

And while I agree that poverty is a component, so is instinct ,which is really what this is about.

“Not like me” goes deeper than learned behavior. Its instinct and while we as a species can learn to see others as like us, this is by no means automatic or even possible.

Humans are in part xenophobic because of our DNA. Heck if Robin Dunbar is correct, our brains have trouble seeing more than a few hundred people as “people” even when they are like us

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbar%27s_number

Expecting us to form heterogeneous societies because a certain segment of humanity craves novelty or there is a political agenda in play is folly. When times get tough, people Tribe Up

As to your point about the Irish, well yeah.

Identity is not related to skin color. Its an issue of culture (of which skin color is a part) not just race and religion. Irish needs are different than English needs and there will be friction. Its probably easier to see Irish are “people like us” because they are fair skinned but given the amount of discrimination and bigotry they have faced, I doubt its a whole lot.

As far as your friends “defriend?” , I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you mean people you spend face to face time with, not some cyber-bud whose friendship is utterly meaningless

No one is telling you not to hang out with whoever you like. Thats not the issue. Nor is anyone telling you that you shouldn’t create multi cultural enclaves if you can manage it and you prefer that culture to the culture that a monocultural enclave will have

What they are saying is on the aggregate is for most people diversity is over valued for human happiness and that implies that a policy of trying to force diversity is social poison

I would like to thank abprosper for taking up the cudgels.

Right now, I would like to reply at length, but I am too busy watching riots induced by ethnic diversity.

http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_15473431?nclick_check=1

OAKLAND — The agitators have struck again.
After about three hours of passionate but largely peaceful protests by hundreds of people who converged on downtown Oakland late Thursday afternoon, a splinter group of protesters, many wearing masks, egged on the crowd and ran through the streets breaking store windows, looting and setting fires before police moved in with flash-bang grenades.
People started pouring into the intersection at 14th Street and Broadway after the surprisingly quick verdict in the Johannes Mehserle trial. The former BART police officer was found guilty of involuntary manslaughter for the fatal shooting of Oscar Grant III on Jan. 1, 2009.
Police officers, while visible and prepared, allowed the crowd of about 1,000 to block the street and set up a podium. One after the other, speakers grabbed a bullhorn to express grief and anger. Many urged the crowd to keep the protest peaceful, and by 8 p.m. there were only a few arrests for fighting with police and instances of rocks being thrown by a smaller group that tried unsuccessfully to march down Broadway toward police headquarters.
But all that changed after dark. By 10:30 violent protesters had left a trail of destruction down Broadway and throughout Uptown, smashing windows and looting. They hit Foot Locker and Sears — even ripping clothing from mannequins. Windows were smashed at Far East National Bank, Luka’s Taproom, Ozumo
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Japanese, Oaksterdam University, Oakland Coin and Jewelry Exchange, Whole Foods, Grace Beauty Supply, JC Jewelry, the Acura dealership showroom, Wells Fargo, California Bank and Trust, US Bank and Bank of the West.

I am so mesmerized by this triumph of diversity that I can barely recall the victories of diverse South Africa.

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1906000,00.html

South Africans received a horrifying measure of just how bad their country’s rape crisis is with the release this week of a study in which more than a quarter of men admitted to having raped, and 46% of those said that they had raped more than once.
The study, conducted by South Africa’s Medical Research Council, reveals a deeply rooted culture of violence against women, in which men rape in order to feel powerful, and do so with impunity, believing that their superiority entitles them to vent their frustrations on women and children. The men most likely to rape, the researchers found, were not the poorest, but those who had attained some level of education and income.
(See pictures of South Africa, Fifteen Years On.)
Researchers interviewed 1,738 men of all race groups, in both urban and rural settings in the Eastern Cape and KwaZulu-Natal, provinces marked by high rates of AIDS and poverty, and the men answered questions about rape and HIV using small handheld computers in order to guarantee anonymity. Of those admitting rape, 73% said that they had committed their first assault before the age of 20. According to the researchers, many of the study’s participants appeared to see no problem with what they had done. These findings, says Mbuyiselo Botha, a senior program advisor at Sonke Gender Justice, an advocacy group for abused women, “highlight the lack of remorse among men in our country, and also the attitude that women remain fair game for us.” Men, says Botha, “continue to abuse even to the point of getting away with murder.”
South Africa has one of the highest incidents of reported rape in the world. The most recent statistics show that 36,190 cases of rape were reported to the police between April and December 2007, though experts believe that number only accounts for one out of nine cases. But the number of rape cases that make it to court — let alone result in a conviction — are far fewer.
Researchers said that many of the perpetrators reported having bullied or been bullied. The study also underscores the huge divide between South Africa’s liberal constitution, which enshrines the rights of women and children, and “the realities of a society where poverty, inequality and violence are rife.”
Gender advocates say that the 2006 rape trial of prominent politician Jacob Zuma was incredibly damaging to their cause. Zuma, who was elected President this year, was tried and acquitted of raping an HIV-positive family friend. He told the court that the woman had dressed provocatively, in a traditional wrap-around kanga, and that it was against Zulu culture for a man to leave a sexually aroused woman unsatisfied.

However, any shortcomings of diversity can be rectified by traditional ethnic folkways, such as are still practiced in Liberia:
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL1334959020080313

(Reuters) – Former Liberian President Charles Taylor ordered his militias to eat the flesh of captured enemies and U.N. soldiers, a former close aide testified on Thursday at Taylor’s war crimes trial.

“He (Taylor) said we should eat them. Even the U.N. white people — he said we could use them as pork to eat,” Joseph “ZigZag” Marzah, who described himself as Taylor’s former death squad commander, told the U.N.-backed Special Court for Sierra Leone.

Now, with an appropriate celebration of diversity in mind, let me address the points one by one:

does diversity only count when people speak a different language to you, or are of a different colour?

Diversity can arise from any factor; humans, of course, have a great deal of natural variation in both physical and mental state. Even if one selects a community of genetically similar persons, one will find mental diversity, demographic diversity, etc.

Because “diversity” is so vague, no one can object to the slogan “celebrate diversity,” no matter how much rape and cannibalism might be going on.

cause if you ask me the only serious terrorist threat britain’s ever faced has been overspill from the continuing Irish Civil War. Muslim bombers have committed one successful atrocity in this country (britain) since the UK joined the holy war. The IRA bombed every major city in england, assassinated members of the british elite, and caused endless havoc back home in ireland. and the UDA were just as bad. Both these groups have very strong ethnic enclaves in scotland, ireland and england.

Well, I feel bad about that because the Irish might have inadvertently killed some of their lower-class British brothers, instead of hitting the plutocrats, kakistocrats, and kleptocrats who run the British Empire. I don’t much like empires; I prefer Jeffersonian republics. However, my feelings are not going to accomplish much until I translate them into actions.

Should i perhaps seek a national homeland where there are no protestants then, because we obviously just can’t get on?

I don’t know if you tend to riot in the presence of Protestants. If you can’t control yourself around Protestants, then don’t live near them.

Maybe i should disown my protestant friends, as they have a different culture from me. While i’m at it, i’d better defriend Omar and Noshine, because their ethno-national interest is contrary to mine.

Don’t worry, the people who say that they’re your friends are probably just being polite, so you probably won’t lose much if you stop hanging out with them.

you go off and hide in your little white-washed ethnic enclave like those pathetic white people that live in fortresses on hackney road thinking the blacks on the street want to do nothing but rob them.

If I saw a bunch of rioters burning ambulances near me, I don’t think I would limit myself to hiding. I would probably run far, far away, and then hide.

i’ve lived in a lot of different areas with a wide variety of demographic makeups and the only constant variable that goes hand in hand with violence is poverty. there’s violence in black ghettoes, there’s violence in white ghettoes, there’s violence in multi-cultural ghettoes, there’s violence on traveller sites and there’s violence in marginalised communes.

Thanks for the detailed anthropological analysis. I assume you’ll let us know when you publish your findings in Nature.

in scotland find catholic ghettoes and protestant ghettoes in glasgow. Guess what. these places are the worst shitholes in the country.

Well, then, clearly there’s nothing to do but to kick Scotland out of the United Kingdom so that it can develop its community life free from the interference of the UK central government.

Come to think of it, Wales, England, and Northern Ireland would all probably be happier as small, independent states, and the queen could limit herself to being Queen of England. Everyone could sit around and read G. K. Chesterton and Hillaire Belloc’s thoughts on why “Little England” is a better choice than the “British Empire.”

if you want to go live in an ethnically homogenous cultural dead-zone go ahead, but don’t come crying to me when your kids grow up without hope because you’ve shut yourself off from the cultural mainstream

Darn it to heck! I had been planning on having a bunch of kids, making them miserable, and then going crying to Andrew Kieran! Well, now that plan has to be scrapped, and I’m back to the old drawing board.

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3 Responses to ‘a policy of trying to force diversity is social poison’ but I’m watching riots and recalling Jacob Zuma and “Zigzag” Marzah

  1. andrew kieran says:

    well gosh, i feel like i’ve partaken in the charge of the Lefty Light Brigade.

    Guess i’ve only got myself to blame 🙂

    seriously though, i don’t riot in the presence of protestants, i don’t riot at all in fact. this is why i stay away from provincial football

    as for my friends, they are my friends, we share similar interests and philosophies and despite racial differences, we’re all human beings here and all nations have a national culture that sits either on top or underneath of ethnic cultures.

    i feel i should state i’m not some naive left-wing social liberal (i know cos i was one when i was younger, before i’d lived in the real world). i know forcing diversity is a route to disaster, but forcing ethnic seperatism isn’t any better.

    we can agree to disagree perhaps. it takes all sorts after all.

    for the sake of clarification i consider myself ethnically Gaelic, but whether that means anything culturally is another thing as the culture of the scottish gaels was (as you’re no doubt aware) ruthlessly suppressed. Culturally speaking i’m a Thurso, scottish, british – in that order.

    to be quite frank i feel that i could pick any of those three and be quite convincing. but these don’t matter to me, the only thing i’ll fight for is my family and neighbours. fighting for nation state or political ideaology is a quick path to permanent residence in a mass grave

    • i know forcing diversity is a route to disaster, but forcing ethnic seperatism isn’t any better.

      The difficult problem of politics is how to live in a society that uses a minimum of force.

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